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00:00

Nitric oxide will slow down your mitochondria ability to produce ATP so you free that up. Awesome. It's producing energy more effectively. Then what happens when nitric oxide hits your bloodstream? It causes vasodilation. Your blood vessels dilate. It increases blood flow to the area reduces inflammation and pain, right? So you're you're healing faster, and your cells producing energy more efficiently, so it does its job better, which in turn also helps you heal faster.

 

00:36

Welcome to Life after impact, the concussion recovery Podcast. I'm Dr Ayla Wolf, and I will be hosting today's episode where we help you navigate the often confusing, frustrating and overwhelming journey of concussion and brain injury recovery. This podcast is your go to resource for actionable information, whether you're dealing with a recent concussion, struggling with post concussion syndrome, or just feeling stuck in your healing process. In each episode, we dive deep into the symptoms, testing treatments and neurological insights that can help you move forward with clarity and confidence. We bring you leading experts in the world of brain health, functional neurology and rehabilitation to share their wisdom and strategies. So if you're feeling lost, hopeless or like no one understands what you're going through, know that you are not alone. This podcast can be your guide and partner in recovery, helping you build a better life after impact.

 

01:38

Today on the life after impact podcast, we have Dr Caroline Wilkerson here to talk to us about photobiomodulation, the use of red light therapy for helping the brain heal and recover from concussions and brain injuries. So I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to come on your podcast. Well, let's dive a little bit into your history, you have such an eclectic background, which I love, I do. You were in naval intelligence, yes, for a while. You speak Russian Mandarin and English, that's correct. And you are a doctor of acupuncture and Chinese medicine, and you worked for a number of years in clinical practice at the Jesse Brown VA Center in Chicago, and then transitioned into the administration as the chief of patient experience, where you worked so hard to actually improve veterans experience of being a patient at Jesse Brown Yes, which is incredible. Thank you. It was a passion project close to my soul. Never done any more challenging work in my life,

 

02:51

but it was, it was really worth it good. It was an honor to serve again. Well, I just think that with everything you do, you bring such a unique combination of skills and perspectives from being on both sides of the equation or all sides of the equation. And so I love that about you, that whatever project you're tackling, you're able to look at it from multiple perspectives. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And then you are currently the VP of Government Relations at patient point, which is a health education and communication company, and you were the co founder of a distributor of light therapy devices. And this is, you know, why I have you on the show today is because you were actually selling light therapy devices from different companies, which meant that you did a ton of research on all the different devices that are out there to say which devices are actually of therapeutic quality, and you were able to then explain that to people and bring that to you know, commercial use, for clinical practice, for retail. And so in the process of doing that you or have become kind of an expert in a wealth of information on red light therapy. So thanks for being here, and I'm hoping that you can shed some light on everybody's confusion around what is this, and how do I even go about potentially finding a device to use, whether that is a, you know, a medical professional in a clinical practice, or just somebody who wants to use it at home to help in healing from their concussion. So let's start out by having you talk a little bit about the terms we hear. The term photobiomodulation. We some of these terms that are maybe now a little bit more outdated. Are things like cold laser or low level laser. We now know that there's differences between laser devices and led and there's different price point differences. So let's talk about the terms and maybe just explain the difference between all of those. Yeah, so photobiomodulation, it's a newer term. It's a big umbrella term for any time.

 

05:00

That you use light to change how your cells function. So red light therapy, near infrared light therapy, infrared therapy, green light, you know, blue light, all the beauty lights that you you know, face lights that you see, those masks that have multiple colors, that's all photobiomodulation. And then people are even using UV light to help whiten their teeth. Yes, I know there's even devices out there where you literally plug it into your phone, and your phone powers it, and then you just stick these things in your mouth. You just bite on the Yeah, okay. And wild. Also, there's a lot of people doing syntonics, which is essentially a form of photobiomodulation that helps with visual symptoms and autonomic functioning. You know, we have this saying of like, looking through the world through rose colored glasses, and I find that such a fascinating saying, because I have all these different colored glasses in my clinic, and when people come in with post traumatic headaches, a lot of times, I'll have them play around with putting on all these different colored lenses to find which lens actually makes you feel the most calm, or makes it so that the fluorescent lights are not so irritating to your system. Or it's like, which lens actually makes you feel more relaxed? And for me, whenever I play around with them, it's always the rose colored glasses that I'm like, I'm just gonna wear these for a few minutes. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I so literally looking through the at the world through rose colored lenses actually calms down my system. That's great. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a green green girl. I love green for calming. Yeah. A lot of people with migraines seem to really like having the green glasses too. Yes, it helps just relax the mind and the body. So okay, so we have this umbrella term photobiomodulation that can be applied to not only different light therapy devices, but like lenses and whitening the teeth and all these different things. And then we have these terms laser versus LED. So let's talk about that next. Yeah, so you know

 

07:10

lasers are use of laser in most states is restricted to medical professionals, right? Because lasers can cause harm period. You can damage the eyes with a class three laser. You can damage actual tissue with a class four laser. So how these devices are manufactured and what they're capable of is different from company to company and device to device, yes. And so that is, I think, where you really did a lot of research in saying there may be a lot of devices out there that are not so therapeutic, or they're just kind of junk. And then there's devices, whether they are led or laser, that actually do. They were well made, they were made with a lot of science behind them, and they actually do have therapeutic value. Yes, that's correct, okay? And then also within lasers, there's different, like you mentioned, there's class three lasers, there's class four lasers. And so that is really also kind of how they're being used medically. And versus, say, a class one laser is something you might see with like a cat toy or a CD player has has a laser in it. Yes, yes. So that's you're looking at class one, class two lasers there. And then when you get to the when you get to the class three cold laser, most of the devices that I like for clinical use myself are class threes, because you're you don't have the opportunity to damage the tissue there potentially, and it's A very quick treatment, and especially when somebody has pain, especially acute pain, it ameliorates it really quickly, in a way that you don't get from the LED. And then the class four laser, there's a, there's a section of class four lasers that are still considered cold lasers, like a K laser.

 

09:00

They use that at your barn. You're, you're an equestrian, yes, yes, I'm a horse girl.

 

09:06

And so the horses are getting a class 4k laser to help with just muscle soreness or also injury repair, you know, if they cut their leg on a fence, and we need to, you know, heal the skin, close the wound faster, even damaged tendons. I mean, I've, I've seen horses that people were pretty sure they were gonna have to put down due to injury, be saved by a combination of brilliant rehab specialists, amazing vets and K laser, amazing. Yeah, awesome. And I know that lasers have been used a lot in veterinary medicine long before they became popular for humans, but we'll get to that in a minute. Yeah, okay, so we've talked about this umbrella term photobiomodulation, then we have lasers and we have LEDs the.

 

10:00

Lasers are often kind of seen more in the medical world, because there is that potential for damage if it is used incorrectly, right? LED is more safe for home use because it has less of a potential to actually damage skin or cause harm if someone is using it for you know, incorrectly, it's hard. It's harder to use them incorrectly, I guess, yes, yeah, you, I mean, you still, if you're, you know, treating the face you, depending on how much power those LEDs are putting out, you may still want to wear those tanning goggles over your eyes. Well, sometimes those lights are just really bright too. Yeah, it's nice to just have some eye protection on, agreed, yeah. And a lot of the home devices also are very user friendly in the sense that it's on a timer, you kind of just hit start and it's on, you know, it turns at it and forget it. Great, yes, okay, great. And then let's talk a little bit about how it works, because every day in my practice, I'm using red light therapy, and so every single day, my patients ask me, What is this doing? And so I know, like, your first experience of it, you were shadowing somebody in the clinic. They pull out this what looks like a red flashlight, and you're like, What on earth are you doing? Oh, absolutely, I was totally skeptical. I'm like, here's this woman I have so much respect for as a clinician, and she's shining a red flashlight on people, like, how does that make people feel better? I you know? And these little red flashlights are actually, like, $7,000 or more, you know. And so they look like these kind of harmless things, because it's just a hand held little tool, but it's actually, there's a lot of power in this thing, ton of power, a ton of research that goes into them before they can even hit the market. And

 

11:47

so I started, after I saw the red flashlight that I was very skeptical of, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna see if there's something to this. And I did a ton of research. At that time, there were over 4500 articles on PubMed that were published that on myriad of different conditions that were showing a therapeutic benefit for laser and LED. And I was astounded. And then I'm like, okay, exactly, how does this work?

 

12:19

Yeah, okay, so let's talk about that, because that's the big question here. And, you know, usually we, you know, go right back down to the the beginnings of, how does our body work, right? And in order for our body to work, we have mitochondria in every single cell, and those mitochondria are the powerhouses of our cell they're the ones that make energy, yes, and so much of the most, like, the most cutting edge research these days is focused on mitochondrial health. And I think that's where people are really being able to point to red light therapy to say, like, this is something that really helps. But why don't you get into, like, the real nitty gritty of what it's doing.

 

13:03

So what happens when red and near infrared light in particular wavelengths, hits your cells, it knocks the oxidative stress out of the cell, the nitric oxide, and forces the cell to release that back into the bloodstream. So nitric oxide will slow down your mitochondria ability to produce ATP so you free that up. Awesome. It's producing energy more effectively. Then what happens when nitric oxide hits your bloodstream? It causes vasodilation. Your blood vessels dilate. It increases blood flow to the area, reduces inflammation and pain, right? So you're you're healing faster, and your cells producing energy more efficiently, so it does its job better, which in turn also helps you heal faster. Okay, great. You're basically super charging your body, right? So we really are batteries. We are, yeah, we're electric, you know. We have an electromagnetic field around us, you know. And so essentially, we our bodies are completely full of photoreceptors that are receptive to different wavelengths of light. And when we're using specific wavelengths of light that these devices have, they have this therapeutic effect of actually getting into the skin. And infrared actually can penetrate a little bit deeper than red light, correct? And so there's different depths of penetration based on the specific device and the wavelength of light. And so through that, we're actually knocking nitric oxide out of the cell, getting oxygen into the cell, charging these mitochondria, they can do their job better, improving cellular function. And as a result, when our cells are healthier, then we're healthier. Big picture, yes, okay, and I know when I went when we were in the middle of the pandemic, that a.

 

15:00

Lot of my patients were coming in with a loss of smell, and that was where I was actually really recommending photobiomodulation intranasally, because you could shine that light up into the nasal passages and into the orbital frontal cortex, which is where we have these tertiary areas that are combining taste and smell in the brain, and by actually getting red light into that area, you could help with restoring that sense of taste and smell that people were losing as a result of the virus, right? And you know, also, when you think about it, you know COVID is also a vascular disease, right? People were getting COVID fingers, COVID toes. And so by increasing your perfusion to those areas and causing that vasodilation. Right then you're you're treating COVID two fold there, which is really exciting, awesome, yeah, and that perfusion piece is really what we're focusing on with the brain, too. It's like, if we can get more blood flow and oxygen to the brain. The brain can work better, absolutely. Okay, well, let's go back in time and talk about kind of the history of red light therapy, because I think that that's also good to know in the context of this conversation.

 

16:14

Yeah. So you know, I don't remember the guy's name anymore, and I'm sorry for that, listeners, if you want to read Norman Doidge's book (The Brain's Way of Healing), chapter three on photobiomodulation, you can get it all from there. But there was a scientist who was cutting open rats, putting tumors in them, and then using lasers on them to see if he could treat cancer with laser. And what he found was that it was not an effective treatment for cancer. However, the rat's incisions healed so much more rapidly in the group treated with laser, and their hair grew back way faster.

 

16:58

So then so it was healing the skin. It was healing the skin and increasing hair growth. So there was definitely something to this. It wasn't going to be used the way he wanted it to. But then that was what sort of springboarded more research over time, and then the more research that was done, then they wanted to do even more research. Well, how can we use it for this? And what about that? And we're still in that we're still on that path, right? The more we learn, the more we want to learn. Yeah, like, oh, can it do this too?

 

17:31

And so then in the 1970s it really became much more popular with veterinarian medicine. And so it's been used much longer in veterinarian medicine than it has in humans. And I think it's in Veterinarian Medicine maybe they're they're more open to trying things. Would that be fair? Yeah, I think so. And

 

17:54

I think also they need more tools for their tool belt, because their patients can't tell them what's wrong all the time. You know the way that we can vocalize our symptoms.

 

18:09

And I do think veterinarians are look always looking for creative ways to treat their animals as effectively as possible, and I also think that animal owners will do more for their loved ones than they'll do for themselves most of the time. As a horse girl, I have to say, I've treated my horse better, quite possibly, than I've ever treated my own body.

 

18:38

Yeah. I mean, I know that, like, with the the PEMF devices that I have, they have, like, the horse version of it. And, you know, with, like, they get Magna wave, they get K laser, they get beamers. They mean, they get it all, yeah, yeah, chiropractic, acupuncture. And, you know, like, my friend had a pit bull that kept, like, having an ACL injury, and so that pit bull also got, like, underwater treadmill rehab. And it's just like, Okay, wow, there's all these cool things that we're like, letting the animals do, and then very slowly, it's like, Wait, what about us? Maybe we should use this? Yeah, so red light therapy's kind of been in veterinary medicine since the 70s. I think you know of a vet who's actually using it, like, post like, pre surgery, post surgery, yeah, pre Perry and post op. Because, you know, if it's indicated like, while she has the animal open on her table, why not get a solid dose of red near infrared light to help those organs heal and supercharge them? Because most of the time, red light's never going to penetrate that deep. Wow. And she, you know, by prepping them a couple days before surgery with laser, then treating them afterwards, they heal so much more fat, so much more quickly, less scarring, less pain,

 

19:58

and she's much less likely to have to see them again anytime soon.

 

20:00

I tell my patients that all the time, like, Okay, you're about to have a surgery, whether it's a hip replacement or I had a patient that had open chest, you know, open heart surgery. And so of course, she had a huge scar on her chest, and we were doing the laser on that scar, because I was seeing her twice a week after that surgery to help her recover, and now you can barely see that scar. It is not raised at all. It is not dark purple or angry like some of the scars I see in people who have had, you know, open heart surgery a long time ago, yeah. And it's just incredible how well her scar healed just from the red light therapy that we were doing afterwards. And then I had another patient who had a cancerous lesion removed from his shin, and he had a crater in his shin, and it wasn't healing. And he had even been going to wound healing centers, but they were not using red light. I don't know why, but they weren't and so he wasn't getting better. And so I started using the laser over this crater in his leg, and every single week it just got better and better and better. And it went from being a crater to getting more and more shallow, and the red angry skin turned to pink, and then eventually it scabbed over, and the whole thing healed up. Like, amazing, yes, so it is incredible for wound healing, yeah. I mean all, like a lot of my patients when I was at the VA had diabetic peripheral neuropathy, which, you know, makes it really hard for them to heal if they have an injury. So I was treating them with laser regularly, blowing the podiatrist minds, you know, wow. This lady's had this unhealing ulcer on her foot for five years, and all of a sudden, it's healing, right? And on top of it, the neuro regenerative effects of cold laser were taking hold. So now she doesn't have to walk with a brace on her foot anymore because of her drop foot. It's healing. She can wear sneakers again, you know, and get that push off when she walks. It. It was incredible. Yeah, amazing. I do hope that, you know, more and more clinics start using red light therapy. And you know, for example, I know that with psoriasis, they are now actually sending patients home with red light devices for skin, for psoriasis, yes, and doing things in office as well. So I do think it's finally working its way into medicine in general, in a lot of different departments, not just beauty and Cosmetology, but also, like surgical I think a lot of you know physical therapists and chiropractors are using lasers too, and now we've got even like the dermatologists using them. And so the, you know, it's starting to show up in many, many different places, right? We're seeing that growth,

 

22:51

you know, exponentially. Now it was really, really, really slow, and only some, you know, fringe, fringe folks like myself were getting really, really into it, but it's really become popularized. Got it, and so let's maybe transition into some of the the specific devices and the research looking at concussions and brain injuries. I know that there is more research looking even at mild cognitive impairment, and can red light therapy actually help improve cognitive function. And so talk a little bit about the VieLight, because I know that you're very familiar with that particular device. Yeah, there's quite a few transcranial photobiomodulation products out there nowadays. The one I'm most familiar with is VieLight, and

 

23:39

I love them because there's so much research that's been done to back them up.

 

23:45

And so I mean, they've worked with the VA in Boston, doing studies in Utah, working with professional sports groups and studying how the transcranial photobiomodulation is affecting these folks with concussions, TBI, anxiety, depression, PTSD

 

24:06

and in showing really positive results.

 

24:11

Amazing. I know one of my friends was actually in one of their studies, and was sent a VieLight that he was supposed to wear for, you know, a certain number of days a week for I don't know if it's eight weeks or 12 weeks, but he did say that he felt like he noticed a difference when he was using it regularly and was part of the study. I'm not sure what all of their metrics were like before and after, but I do think it was probably just a ton of different questionnaires on symptoms and kind of presentation that way. But I think that you know, the process of doing research is always evolving. You do a research study and then you figure out, how do we do it better the next time, right? Or get the sample size larger, right? How do we eliminate bias? Yes, yeah. And some of the mild cognitive impairment studies we're actually looking at, testing reaction time and memory.

 

25:00

Three and doing neuropsych testing before and then after the use of the device. And so it is pretty cool to see that they're trying to get a lot of objective data to say, you know, How is this not only how is this working, but like, how are we able to measure the change, right? And, I mean, there's even implications for

 

25:22

improving cognitive function in healthy brains as well. You know, people who are trying to get more out of their performance, whether it's an athletic performance,

 

25:35

you know, making your brain super sharp before you hit the field or in, you know, for soldiers and and sailors out there who

 

25:46

want to be at peak performance when they're out on a mission, like, yeah, it's there's a lot of opportunity right to not only heal but to, like, hack your brain and get the most out of it, which is exciting. Sometimes when I have a bunch of chart notes I have to crank out, I'll just pop my my VieLight on while I'm sitting at my desk. I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna put my light on and we're just gonna do chart notes. We're gonna, like, not look at anything else and just crank it out. Yes, I love that. That's yeah, that is a smart use

 

26:20

that amazing tool you have in your office. That's the nice thing about having a clinic full of tools, you know, you it's like, I have access to all of this great stuff that keeps keeps me operational. And so with the VieLight, the cool thing about it too is that it has different frequencies, and so it has the gamma setting and the Alpha setting. So maybe explain a little bit more more about that and how that is used. Yeah, so the gamma pulse rate, 40 hertz is there to help you improve cognitive function, right, to focus you, okay, it's the it's not like a

 

27:01

like a cup of coffee or anything kind of upper increase, right? But just really harnessing in on the gamma stem, that gamma state of your brain,

 

27:13

so supporting specific brain wave activity related to being alert and awake, yes, and then alpha stem, that's your rest and digest mode. This is where you heal. This is where you're more relaxed. So

 

27:29

this is a an area where you would want to do this, like before bed, maybe and potentially be easier to fall asleep or mitigate anxiety. But also, you know, if we can't rest, we can't heal, and so putting your brain into that state that's primed for healing now isn't our isn't Alpha way of activity. What is kind of most predominant when people are meditating, and when they are kind of in that space, but like when they are falling asleep where they're like, not totally asleep, but they might. Their brain is kind of wandering, yes, yes. Like, you know when you're kind of spaced out and daydreaming and you know you're not stressing about the neck, yes, yes. Like, Oh wow, the birds are pretty

 

28:19

excellent. Okay, so that's what's cool about the V light. And the V light has, like I said, that intranasal component too. So not only is it transcranial, with all of the lights on the top of the head and around the skull, but then also the clip that actually gets that red light up through the nostril and kind of right into that frontal lobe area, yes. And I think that's what's really neat and unique about VieLight is, you know, besides the pulsing wavelengths and all the research that they've done, they're one of the few devices I've ever seen that has an intranasal right? I mean, it doesn't look cool, but it is cool. Therapeutically, it's cool, yeah. I mean, it kind of look like something out of, like a old school, cheesy sci fi movie when you wear the ring. But, I mean, who cares if you're free if you feel better, right? Exactly, exactly. Yeah, awesome. And it's not like you wear it out in town, you know, right? I believe that one is like a 20 minute timer, yes, a 20 minute session. And those are actually LEDs not not laser. So that's it's easy for people to get it. You don't have to go necessarily, through a medical provider, you know,

 

29:36

yeah, and I do believe that I have a special link for people that does give them, I think, 10% off if they do want to look into that. Oh, that's great, yeah. And give me that link.

 

29:49

I need a new one well. And I mean, I think one of the nice things of, how about having the device in the clinic, is that people can come in, they can experience it and receive care in clinic.

 

30:00

Before they make a decision on, would I want to buy this and actually have it at my house, right? Like, does this make sense for me and my lifestyle? Am I actually going to use it if I invest in it exactly? And the biggest thing is, you know, people, when they come in and they receive care, it's always, what is the, what is the frequency that's actually going to make a difference? And so, you know, if people are coming in and they're maybe from out of town, and they're just in for like, an intensive treatment, or maybe they're driving really far, and they can only come in, you know, once a week or once every other week, I'm always thinking of, what can I do to have this person get some kind of therapy at home in between treatments too? Right? So that's where I really like the fact that they, you know, allow people to purchase it to use at home, so they can get some kind of treatment in between when they're, you know, when they're coming to see me. So that's one of the reasons why I like it too. Is I'm always like, what can people do at home, whether that's taking an herbal formula or doing a PEMF therapy or, you know, right? How can I, how can I empower people to be able to heal themselves as well, you know? And that's what I think a lot of people in our culture want more of nowadays. I think so too. And I think when it comes to the the photo, bio modulation market, people are so confused, because it's like, okay, I could spend $60 or I could spend $100,000

 

31:24

so what is the difference between these price points and these different devices, right? And why are they set that way? And how do I know what snake oil and what's, you know, actually gonna help me? Yeah, I don't want to throw away $60 on something for it to not work. Exactly. Yeah, I know I had somebody the other day that was like, Oh, I got this thing. And it was like, 40 bucks at, you know, Walgreens or whatever. And I was kind of like, yeah, I don't think that's gonna be super helpful.

 

31:51

Let me check the label. Let me check the box, right, yeah. And so for our listeners, we have a blog post on the life after impact website that will go over some of these kind of frequently asked questions, and maybe some pros and cons of some different devices that are out there right let's just help you guys choose the right thing for you, potentially with just a little bit of extra information. Exactly. I mean, because, like my my mom fell and injured her wrist, and so I gave her a flex beam, which was this thing that actually could, like, wrap around the wrist. It was very, you know, applicable to her wrist injury. And then I had somebody else that had psoriasis, and so I gave them a red light panel where it's, like, the panel was really great for actually getting red light onto the skin for the psoriasis. And so there's different devices that really make sense for maybe different conditions or different purposes, right? Yeah, you don't need to spend, you know, three grand on a VieLight Neuro Duo, necessarily, if you're just trying to heal a wound on your skin, yes, yeah, but when it comes to concussions, you might not want the $60 device that isn't really powered correctly or, like therapeutically. It doesn't have enough LED lights to make a difference. It might not have the right wavelengths to actually penetrate the brain, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's so we'll tackle all of that in the blog post and give people some additional information.

 

33:22

So at my clinic, I've got, like I mentioned, the the FlexBeam. I've got some panels, I've got my headsets, and then I have my class 3b laser. What is your favorite device? Oh, well, I have a favorite device for multiple different things. So if you want to get rid of pain really, really quickly, you want to be able to treat humans and animals. I love the K laser now in clinic where I'm just treating humans. I love both Thor and avant. I love the flexibility, the portability of the Avant I love all the different pulsing features that it has.

 

34:08

The Thor laser is, to me,

 

34:13

from what my personal experience is, just the best at ameliorating pain.

 

34:19

It's a little clunkier. It's desktop setup. You can't just easily take it from clinic room to clinic room,

 

34:27

but it also works really quickly. It works really quickly. It's a 30 second treatment. No, it's a class 3b Okay, got it. And they have so many different heads that you can put on that do different things.

 

34:41

So there's a lot of different ways you can use the Thor. It's a little bit more nuanced than the event, but for affordability, portability, just ease of use in clinic, I love love, love the Avant, and it's so much cheaper than the Thor, but the Thor is really.

 

35:00

Really, really a great quality product too. Like, I wish that they could revamp it in some way, shape or form, to make it like, yeah, to make it avant portable, you know, well, you used the Thor on me last night. You said my shoulders felt like cement. Yeah, they were rocks. Your traps were rocks, but I have no pain. They feel great after you worked on them. So thank you. Yeah, yeah. I've also, you know, found that the the laser devices are very good for pain, yes, and I think that's the speckling effect of the laser, because it's you've got these coherent waves in sync with each other. And something about how that works. It's just like instant within, like 30 seconds to five minutes after treating myself with a laser, especially with an acute injury of some sort, it's just gone. It's like it didn't even happen. And most of the time it never comes back. I'm like, How is this possible? It still blows my mind every time. Even though I know that it works, I'm still so surprised how good it works.

 

36:06

Awesome. Yep. And then for LEDs,

 

36:13

my favorite for transcranial VieLight. VieLight is, also coming out with a vagus nerve stimulator that I'm really excited to learn more about and experiment with,

 

36:25

and then for just like treating the body for pain at home, for the average Joe, I love the flex beam. It's like a two full watts of power, high powered LEDs, red and near infrared, and a super low price point compared to a lot of other devices that are actually therapeutically beneficial in the LED class. So love flex beam,

 

36:48

awesome. Well, I'll put links in the show notes to all of those things. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and just shining a light on all the confusion that people have when it comes to devices and what they're doing and the differences between them. So thank you so much for sharing all that information. Oh, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy, like talking to you, hanging out with you, and nerding out over all of these really, really cool things that I'm very passionate about. So thank you for having me. Well, I love it too. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on. And where can people find you?

 

37:26

On LinkedIn. Okay, Caroline Wilkerson, super. I'll put a link to that in the notes as well. Great. Thank you so much. Thanks everybody for tuning in. And again, if you want to learn more about photobiomodulation, check out our blog at life after impact.com you can also follow us on Instagram at life after impact, and if there are any specific topics you want us to tackle, we'd love to hear from you. You can click the Text us link in the show notes, or send us an email at life after impact@gmail.com

 

38:00

thanks again, and we'll see you next week.

 

38:07

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